All Talk and No Action Sunday, November 29, 2009

I had almost given up the plan to write on this.

However, this prompted me to chin up and share my thoughts.

Just a disclaimer - If you are an overly devout follower of any religion and are ritual bound, you might not like the content of this post. Feel free to click the X on the top right of this page.

It was good to read the information on Bakri Eid and its significance, collected from various sources.

My friend is keen to point out that people should be more open minded and not add to communal tension. He specifically mentions Right Wing parties and organizations that raise a hue and cry every year during this festival.

Just to add my bit to his knowledge, from what I know of BJP and other Right Wing parties, the only animal that they truly care about is the cow and most of their efforts have been aimed at stopping cow slaughter.

Infact, a lot of the leaders from the party are hard core Non Vegetarians, the most famous example being that of Atal Bihari Vajpayee. He enjoyed his share of mutton and was known to sample all sorts of non vegetarian delicacies. Even from the younger slot of party representatives, Smriti Irani is another example of a hard core non vegetarian who loves her bacon and sausages.

I have had an opportunity to get a close glimpse at several Jan Sangh members and again, let me add, a lot of them enjoy experimenting with non vegetarian variety of food.

So really, this whole thing about BJP and other such parties hampering Eid celebrations is a concoction of overactive minds in the Indian media who would like us to believe that the BJP is a party from the stone age. Well, yeah, where non vegetarianism is concerned, they are from the stone age and do enjoy their chicken !

As far as our Indian media is concerned, well, just shoo them away and watch Rakhi and Elesh rearing a bunch of kids !


Now I start with what I truly think of animal slaughter in the name of religion.

Just saying that it is unjust and brutal would be an understatement. But for now I would settle for that.

I have never been in favour of animal sacrifice during Durga Puja. I remember reading somewhere that all animals that are slaughtered and offered to God, actual end up as humans in their next birth !

Just for the un-initiated, according to Hinduism, there are 84 lakh life forms and one needs to pass through all of them to finally be blessed with a human form.

So a lot of "learned" men feel that sacrificing animals at the altar will actually cleanse them of all their sins and help them get a human form.

Well, personally, I think such men are just trying to rid themselves of their guilt of such mindless slaughter.

Who am I to decide which animal needs to die and when?

Also, where is it written that Durga would be happy with all the sheep and chicken being butchered?

Understand that such practices were common during ancient times when superstition was rife and the most appealing and fastest method to the Lord's heart was through animal sacrifice.

However, education is supposed to make us kind hearted and wise. Isn't it?

Let's take two other festivals - Diwali and Ganesh Chaturthi.

Now, Diwali is a personal favourite. I love the lights and the sentiments attached to this one.

As a kid I have had a whale of time bursting crackers. But there came a time, when my father sat my brother and me down and explained that most crackers were being produced by kids our age, the noise created was giving lots of asthama attacks to the older generation and really, the noise and air pollution wasn't what the festival signified. Since then, all I ever do is burn a shagun ki fuljhadi and my brother doesn't even bother with that !

Not to say that we were model kids. Nope. Just that ultimately, it is we who have to decide that our source of happiness and fun shouldn't make someone's heart burn.

About Ganesh Chaturthi - the point really was to bring people together and help unite the region. I don't think Lokmanya Tilak wanted us to wrestle and compete about kis Mandal ki Murti sabse Badi and Mehengi hogi.

I think all of us know about the prostitutes of Kolkata. Why not, during every Durga Puja, help rehabilitate their kids and ensure a better living environment for their families?

During Ganesh Chaurthi, why not get baby sized idols and immerse them in our bath tubs and help the fauna stay alive for a few more months?

Similarly, during Bakri Eid, which stands for sacrificing one's dearest possession to show our love for the Lord, why not give up an addiction which we can't live without ? Why sacrifice a sheep, which anyway isn't dear to us? And about distributing and sharing food with the needy, really, there are a LOT of people who would like to have the home-made Kheer and Malpua :)

Well, methinks this is the ideal way of celebrating a festival.


Anonymous said...

nice post..and kind of killing in the name of god is wrong. You don't have any right to kill someone just for hack of it or otherwise.

And if you do so own up to it...don't drag god in the matter. I don't know what kind of debate the said guy is talking about ; How can someone justify a murder? forget about debating it. whether its on bakri-id or at jeevdani mandir,any killing should be condemned.

by not commenting on to ur last post I guess I have added to the silence :)


Anonymous said...

and as they say:

Is man one of God's blunders or is God one of man's blunders?


What's in a name? said...

hmmmm....good way to mention other festivals as well, so that not just anyone religion's one particular festival gets highlighted...i like that.

First point accepted that these parties could be protesting against Cow killing (which is rarity in India now, considering religious sentiments) but most of the time they have done this Morcha in general as well (my dad - a cop, is a proof for same, wherein these people have also protested for other animal killing.

Sacrificing an animal is not a compulsion for everyone, and it is only done by affluent Muslims so that they can later distribute the meat to poor people, who don't get the liberty to have non-veg everyday.
If you ever visit Deonar Slaughter house during Bakri Eid, you can actually see that when a animal is slaughtered all poor people, not just Muslims, but Hindu ladies as well run and fight for a single piece of meat. I myself am a witness to this situation.

Sacrificing an animal for God is never done on this Eid, It is done to thank the Almighty for one's good fortune and to share it with the less fortunate

The question of being a veggie or non-veggie arises because we have the option to be one in this country, but if we were a resident of some Icelandic country, veggies option would have never existed, as there is hardly any vegetation in North pole or South pole, rite?

So as I mentioned in my article, God has made us human the most supreme and for our existence given us the option of plants and animals to eat and survive. If you think its absurd, you can check herbivorous animals have flat teeth, all carnivorous animals have sharp pointed teeth, whereas we humans are the only species who have both set of teeth called omnivorous teeth. so that we can have both kinda food for our existence.

Woa, Mukta this could have been a new post article for me yaar...

india unbound said...

@Whats in a name?

After a certain age, people are advised to totally shun non vegetarian food. That is never the case with vegetarian food. You would never hear a doctor advising any patient that please avoid pulses, fruits, leafy vegetables and increase intake of meat, eggs, fish, etc. The opposite of this happens all the time. The probability of suffering from heart diseases & high blood pressure is more in case of non vegetarians.

I think this should give us some idea whether God intended us to be non vegetarians.

ARJuna said...

@India Unbound
The reason that doctors advise us to avoid non veg foods is not because the non veg food itself causes health problems, the health problems like cholestrol, cardiac problems are a result of modern lifestyle, lack of exercise and large consumption of fats/oils through non veg. thus we cant blame only non veg for all the diseases. Remember God made us what we are (I am talking about eating habits), if people in the north do not consume meat and fats they will easily die of frostbite/hypothermia.

All Talk and No Action said...

@allthecrap - All True. Even I do not condone killings in the name of religion, whichever religion be it.

@What's in a name - Yes, the point of the post was not to bring down any articular religion, but all religions that kill in the name of God. About Deonar, yes, I am aware of that too :)

Also, just a question - why do show our gratitude to God by killing? That's the main point of the post. Why can't we share fruits, vegetables, kheer, and any other rich food made at home, with the less fortunate? Why kill a helpless animal to feed a human and please a God?

If an Eskimo were to eat Fish or Dolphin, I wouldn't hold it against him. But when people in cities have "non-violent" means of feeding themselves available, what explains their cruelty?

@India Unbound & ARJuna - Both veg & non-veg food have their inherent strengths and nutrients.
The point of the post is - why kill to satisfy a base need? Why is our love for blood more than our understanding of animal suffering?

What's in a name? said...

@india unbound: Excess of anything is bad, my point is not to just have meat or something, but to keep the options open...and yes doctors do advise not to eat meat only when its eaten in excess or regular basis ... the same way, doctors advise veggies people not to eat ghee, sugar, peanuts etc as these things also increase cholesterol and btw if you are not aware pregnant women are actually advised to eat eggs for good health and I have never heard of any long-term sickness happening because of fish or chicken (infact white meat is good for health)...

@Arjuna: totally agree with you.

@All talk and no action: First, why do u always ask question, which are too long too type...%$#@^

Second, if you read my article, the act of Prophet Ibrahim is repeated ... the animal is bought in the house almost like a week before (some people bring it a year before), is cared for nurtured, so that you get attached to it, and then feel what Prophet Ibrahim felt when he tried to sacrifice his son, but god replaced it with a sheep. So we Muslims commemorate this superior act of sacrifice.

And also, no one can decide what other wants to eat, rite? If one can afford it, has no problems with it, then why bother...for e.g., Chinese like to eat snake, pigs and all kinda crap, I don't like, but these people love it, can afford it, so who am I to question them about their food habits....rite?

india unbound said...

I agree with most of your points.

@ Arjun

Non veg food is not at all imperative to avoid frostbite & hypothermia. One can do without it.

@ Whats in a name?

I think you missed my point. I never meant that no veg food can be harmful. All I meant was that human body is not meant for non veg food otherwise one could lead a healthy life even if he just eats non veg. Whereas one can survive on an all vegetarian diet for life.

No one can force anything anyone but I am sure you would have come across research which shows that non vegetarianism contributes to global warming in a big way. Vegetarianism makes sense ecologically too.

What's in a name? said...

@india unbound: "human body is not meant for non veg food" a very wrong statement....plz read my first comment or lemme repeat it here (taking you back to school now) human species is the only living thing on this planet which has got omnivorous teeth which means we can have both plants and animals, whereas animals like cattles have herbivorous teeth so they only eat grass and wild cats have carnivorous teeth, so we never see a lion, tiger eating anything but meat — so that statement of yours is very wrong

@all veggies: oh forgot to add one more thing, if killing is bad, m sure you guys are aware even plants have life and if you do small google search on "do plants feel pain" you will get lots of results which might be an think logically, if you don't wanna starve we have to have either plants or animals or both to survive....

india unbound said...

@ Whats in a name ?

Does the digestive system of humans comprise of only teeth?

Besides humans can digest raw fruits & vegetables. The same cannot be done with any non veg food.

A tiger or a lion eats just non veg food whereas an elephant just veg.

Human beings can lead a healthy life just by depending on veg food. But they cannot lead a healthy life only by eating non veg food (unlike carnivores like a tiger or lion). If we were supposed to eat both veg & non veg food, no question would arise of "excess" non veg food just as it does not arise in case of a tiger or lion.

What's in a name? said...

@india bound: dude you are so ignorant, "do u even know what you are talking??? digestive systems of human not for non-veg food" ... there are billions (not millions) of people around the world who eat non-veg on a daily basis and...infact Japanese people are said to live longer in the world and they mostly eat sea food (do u know that?)...people living in north pole survive only on seal and other kind of animals...regarding eating raw meat...well when one can cook and eat it, then why eat raw, but for your info, when in 1972 Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571 crashed into Andes and some of its passengers died, other remaining passengers survived in the Andes for more than 2 months by eating raw flesh from the dead bodies of other passengers, plus Eskimos still eat raw blood and liver of seals after hunting, so do some African my point is if required raw meat can also be digested but when we have the arrangement for cooking why eat raw.

Hence i mentioned in my blog "MIND YOUR BUSINESS" because my point for humans to survive they have to kill plants and animals or else, I don't see any other source of living on this god has given us the option of having either plants or animals or both...but some ignorant people, who don't think logically, get into this debate...

Anonymous said...

I don't know where this debate is heading..but All I would like to add to this discussion is that I don't have problem with ppl eating non-veg food. Its there will..whatever they wanna do..But don't do in the name of religion..just own up to it.


What's in a name? said...

@allthecrap: Thats exactly, what I have been trying to say...MINDING YOUR OWN BUSINESS...choice of food depends on your hunger not on religion...but also let me say religions restriction are to be considered - as in what to eat and what not to eat...e.g., Jains are not allowed to eat certain things like roots, meats etc, Muslims are not allowed to eat pork there will be religious rules/laws involved to a certain degree, but people from one community should not poke a nose for no apparent reason into others ... feel free to follow your stuff, the debate starts when certain people (without considering the majority and without taking into fact the scientific and logical aspects) start believing what I am doing is good and what others do is bad... :-)

india unbound said...

@ All the Crap

I agree to you that people should own up their act instead of doing it in name of religion. However, there is nothing wrong in promoting a good practice if it benefits all. Vegetarianism would help in reducing global warming.

@ Whats in a name?

"but some ignorant people, who don't think logically, get into this debate..." This gem made my day :D

This should help you think logically:

The planet's oldest people (Okinawans in Japan)actually consume very less or negligible non veg food (now you would know this)

It is not about religion. My religion does not forbid non veg food but I still dont eat. There are many Muslims, Christians who are vegetarians and PETA, I believe is largely dominated by Christians and doing a great job in promoting vegetarianism.

A very good article in todays HT by a Nobel prize winner on how meat eaters contribute to global warming

What's in a name? said...

@indiabound: oh good u agree to atleast one point of mine, "but some ignorant people, who don't think logically, get into this debate..." though you still doing

The first two links that you have mentioned, talks about excessive meat eating, and if you read my blog/comments here, even I have mention it that excess of anything is bad...

The third link you mentioned about Japanese people mentions about them living on vegetables and sea food...which again i had said, white meat has no side effect, and is infact good for health...however you were the one who had mentioned "You would never hear a doctor advising any patient that please avoid pulses, fruits, leafy vegetables and increase intake of meat, eggs, fish, etc."

the last link about global warming again says about reduced consumption of meat, but does not talk about stopping it all together...because I don't know if you know about this, but even meat (red/white) contains vital ingredients which are beneficial to human body, if consumed in proper quantity

And most importantly,
If you read my blog post, I did mention that a Muslim can be a very good Muslim even by being a very strict vegetarian (my uncle being an example of it), so eating non-veg has got nothing to do with religion ... what pisses me the most is when most veggies (read allthecrap) tend to make us non-veggies (Muslims, Christians etc) guilty by saying you kill animals for only question is, so don't you kill plants, which again has life in them, for food...just because plants don't have sense like us and animals, that means we can kill them for food, whereas animals with senses like us should not be killed....where is the logic in it???

and people (read indiabound) who says non-veg food doesnot give benefits to human body and humans should not consume it, either didn't go to school or didn't pay attention in school, coz science does say meat also has its own benefits.

india unbound said...

@ Whats in a name?

The links I posted prove that vegetarians live longer and non vegetarians are at larger risk of heart diseases and cancer compared to vegetarians.

You need to grow beyond your school days and think logically.

This is hopefully my last reply. No point in stating the same thing over and over again.

What's in a name? said...

@india bound: arre but the link you posted about Japanese people say they live longer because of their diet of vegetables and fish...not just vegetables...i guess instead of debating with me, you better watch the video on youtube called, "Is non-vegetarian food prohibited or permitted" with an open proves that veg food is good, but even non-veg is not bad for health as you are trying to say...and maybe you give up...but whenever you want to start again, I am there dude...

All Talk and No Action said...

@ALL the particiants - Thank you for an enlightening debate and course on healthy eating and living.

The whole point of the post was - not to kill, whether in the name of religion or to satisfy one's own pangs.

If situation demands that one turn into a non-veggie, it cannot be helped. Yet, if one has an option to lead a lesser violent life, going veg is the best option.

But again, blaming particular communities is not right too and no particular religion can/should be singled out in this case since all of them kill in one way or the other.

What's in a name? said...

@alltalkandnoaction: Mukta Mukta Mukta...if your point was not to kill to satisfy one's own pangs....then as i said before even veggies kill plants (which has life in it) to satisfy their hunger...isn't that violent then???

Just because plants don't have senses like animals, they can't walk and talk, that means they can be killed, where is the logic there???

If veggies kill plants for food that is ok, but if non-veggies kill animals for food that is violent...don't you think you guys are being partial here...huh???

So again, let me repeat myself, people have an option of eating anything (lawful) and veggies shouldn't make us (non-veggies) feel guilty by saying "you people are violent, you kill animals just for food" or "non-veg food has no benefits" because both statements are so wrong and partial.


All Talk and No Action said...

@What's in a name - Dear Friend, as already explained, humans need to survive. For survival the most non violent means should be used. Hence, the plants. Infact, breathing causes lots of insects to die too. However, one needs to breathe, so this is unavoidable.

Plants are at the very initial stages of evolution. Whereas animals have progressed and hence can move and do bleed. Hence, it is advised that plants should be had for survival since it involves minimum "bad karma".

About making non-veggies feel guilty, I think everyone of us is blessed with a conscience and somewhere we all know what is right and wrong. Now it's alright if some of us continue to hurt living beings to satisfy ourselves.
But I would say what my fave superhero says - "With great power comes great responsibility" :)

What's in a name? said...

@alltalk...: No offense, but your statement doesn't make sense yaar, a bad karma is a bad karma, there is no minimum or maximum in it...and just because plants don't move and bleed and they have not "fully evolved" they can be killed...its like saying, I can kick a pregnant lady in her tummy and if the foetus in her dies, I can say it was not fully evolved, so its a minor "Bad Karma"...

anyways I know there is no end to this debate and I am not here to convince anyone to eat non-veg....all I am saying (and repeating again) is its free world everyone has the right to choose his/her food (legal), so no one should point fingers at others...just because we don't like it...

So if someone doesn't like a particular meal don't eat it, no one is forcing you for that, but if you say god wanted us to eat plants or human body is not meant for meat eating or killing plants for food is ok but killing animals is bad, then the debate will start always atleast from my end...

K10 Keni said...

I think we had a debate on this earlier...ya rub ur eyes its me who is commenting....But if killing animals goes in bad karma according to Gita, It doesnot mean that that individual is BAD or Violent...

Anonymous said...

@WIN Your telling other ppl to read ur blog and comments properly but it doesn't seem that u read other ppls comment.. I never said muslims are my first comment, I am even talkin abt hindus ..or else as indiaunbound said we will have to keep on repeating the same stuff again and again..which I wont...and as IU said Grow UP!!

@IU On a lighter note if we die early we will have less carbon print and can help in reducing the global warming :)


What's in a name? said...

your 1st comment:
killing on bakri-id or at jeevdani mandir should be condemned.

your 12th comment:
killing in the name of religion should not be done

dude if u see, u r the one who is bringing the religion issue again and again, in my blog, I just tried to explain about what Bakri Eid is, but u r the one who in every comment of yours have been making a statement of religion...I never said u talking specifically of Muslims, I said (Muslims, Christians etc) and I also mentioned that we never kill any animal (unnecessarily) and offer it to God.

And again as i told India bound, maybe you have given up, but if you wanna start this debate all over again, I am there

All Talk and No Action said...

@WIAN - Dear Friend, I agree that either way, humans have to kill to survive. Infact even while walking and breathing, we kill. However, as I said earlier, humans have been given a mind, to think. How you decide to survive is a matter of personal choice. But it does ultimately reflect on how generous you are as an individual and how much respect you have for "life". What I fail to understand is, how as human beings we cry for our loved ones if they are in pain. However, we do not extend this emotion to other living beings. Also, Karma is a whole chapter in itself. So maybe we can kee it for our offline discussion. Also, since you think killing plants is equivalent to killing animals, would you have any suggestions for Vegetarians?

@Ketan - Thanks for stopping by. Personally, I do think how one treats a living being does show how one is as a person.

What's in a name? said...

@alltalk...:Thank you for agreeing on two things, first for humans to survive they gotta kill either plants or animals and second every human has a mind of its own to select what is good and bad for when you agree then why bother, about why people kill animals for food, its their choice...

And suggestions for veggies, well as I have been telling (multiple times), plants and animals are both options for humans (for food), they can choose either or both, so if they are being cut down for survival (food) then its ok with me, as long as they are not being slammed for fun.

And btw ur statement to ketan, again in different words, you are saying non-veggies are violent, not generous, but plz take into consideration that a majority of people living on this planet earth right now, including your friend Shoeb, :-) are non-vegetarians and do a lot of charitable cause and are generous, kind-hearted people and just to ring a bell, Hitler, Verappan were strict vegetarians...but were they good humans, a person's nature does not depend on the kind of food he/she has.

Dhawal Shah said...

Well, we all are currently suffering on this planet, simply because of our past karma.

Your present karma maybe whatever is only going to get back to you, whether, good, bad, evil or whatever.

If you kill animals, so will someone who is more powerful do onto you. Its been for a very long time, that I have given up being outspoken on this issue.

Every action of ours, unless the one that deliberately involves Krishna is only sinning. This could even be just watching a movie. Every action that you do, takes closer to God or away from God.

Every form of violence, takes you away from Krishna. I hope I am able to shed some light. May God bless you, all on this occassion of Saphala Ekadashi.

I would request you to read this:

and enlighten yourself.

What's in a name? said...

@dhawal: Hi Dhawal, the concept of Karma and rebirth is something which Hindus believed in...but other major religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc) in the world don't believe in this lets not get into that and lets talk with common things between us.

Secondly, I don't blame you, since you just joined in, but I have told others, this debate started when someone talked about Non-veg food, religion should not be bought into this topic, even what I mentioned in my blog, was the custom and the reason why this Eid is celebrated, if you have access to Quran, it doesnot say you gotta be a non-vegetarian to be better Muslim, hence I posted an article about it to clear the misconception...

And most importantly, the reason why this debate keeps on going is because, some people are just not ready to accept the fact (that Humans have been consuming non-veg since ages and living a healthy life and even today a majority of people living on this planet are non-vegetarians), they keep on arguing that human body is not capable of having meat, or killing plants if fine for food, but killing animals for food is bad and these kinda illogical reasoning...

But again, as I have mentioned, no one if trying to tell anyone to start having meat, if you don't like it, don't do it, but don't force others to become veggies for stupid reasons...its a free world and god has given a mind for everyone to think and select what is right for them plus its very hard to believe that majority in this world would be wrong for so many centuries...

Hence I stated in my blog, "MIND YOU BUSINESS and LET OTHERS MIND THEIRS"

Anonymous said...

I am a vegeterian and seriously I dont have any problem with people who are non vegeterians. After all it is one's choice of food and it should not be given any name of religion . Man is omnivorous what we all know , so freedom of food should not be questioned. But I am not that convinced about people those who oppose animal sacrifice during festivals . In most of of them be it a hindu or muslim festival people love to have dishes which they like and in return they offer it to the god as a forgiver of their sins. What I think is that the matter of concern is not about the religious offerings rather our likingness espicially our food habits. Whenever we offer in the name of animal killings , it might be religious or non religious I dont know but at the end of it we love the meat that we sacrifice. Are we not consuming the meat that we offer ?? Yes.. So my question to fellow viewers is those who oppose to sacrifices are they concerned about the religious tradition or humanity , but if it is out of compassion for a life then they are promoting vegetarianism , which is obviously not our aim. I am confused that if the meat is edible then let it be a sacrifice . what are we against actually ??? Non Vegetarianism or humanity or religious rituals ??